Bucknuts…or just plain old nuts?

Not even 12 hours after Brady Quinn “shocked” the college football world by winning the Maxwell Award, and some asinine Buckeyes fan writes an article quite nearly devoid of all substance or integrity.

Dave Berk of bucknuts.com says

Like most college football fans I’m still scratching my head on how the Maxwell Award goes to a quarterback with two losses and inflated numbers…What should have been the final piece of the puzzle during Thursday nights College Football Awards soon became the biggest joke of the night and possibly the season….

Look at all the numbers and not just the passing yards posted by the two….

Smith earned Big Ten offensive player of the year honors by throwing for 30 touchdowns and amassing 2,740 total yards….

Quinn had 35 touchdowns and passed for 3,278 yards but needed 135 more attempts to account for the extra yards.  When you break it down, Quinn only averaged 5.7 yards more per play in those 135 plays.

Dave Berk is right. I’ve seen the light. By all means, let’s “look at ALL the numbers.”


So Mr. Berk wants to talk “inflated numbers”? This season Troy Smith has faced a schedule in which 10 of Ohio State’s 12 opponents were unranked. Of the three Heisman finalists–Smith, Brady Quinn and Darren McFadden–Troy Smith has faced the least number of ranked teams. Per Jeff Sagarin, Ohio State’s strength of schedule is ranked 38th in the country, and Notre Dame’s is 20th.


Is this the part in the analysis where, per Mr. Berk’s instructions, we throw out the passing yards as immaterial? I suppose we’d have to for Troy Smith’s benefit, given that his 209 yards passing per game ranks 33rd in the nation while Quinn’s 273 ypg is ranked 8th. As Mr. Berk points out, however, we should look at Smith’s 2,740 total yards for a more accurate barometer of greatness. After all, those 2,740 yds rank Smith 32nd in the nation. Pretty impressive.

Although not quite as impressive as Brady Quinn’s 3,343 total yards that ranks him still 8th in total offense out of all Div I-A players.


An oft-quoted stat in Troy Smith’s Heisman candidacy is his TD-INT ratio of 30-5. What’s conveniently disregarded is that Brady Quinn’s TD-INT ratio of 35-5 not only leads all Div I-A QBs, it’s a ratio surpassed by only one QB in the last decade (Phillip Rivers, NC State, 2003).

Speaking of these 5 interceptions, I need a clarification from Buckeyes fans. You’re always more than willing to trudge out (again) Troy Smith’s fewer pass attempts to support your arguments in regards to his “superior” efficiency–completion percentage, TDs-per-attempts, etc. Is there any OSU homer with a shred of character who’s willing to actually follow through on that entire analysis and point out that this also means Smith interception-per-attempt ratio is in fact worse than Quinn’s?

Smith currently has 30 TDs and 5 INTs on 199 pass completions. Quinn has 35 TDs and 5 INTs on 274 completions. If you projected these numbers out and had Troy Smith completing as many passes as Brady Quinn, Smith would have 41 TDs…and 7 INTs.


Troy Smith plays behind an offensive line that’s surrendered 11 sacks all season, less than one per game. Brady Quinn has been sacked 30 times, and that doesn’t even take into account the hurries and knockdowns. Ohio State’s ground game is ranked 18th in the country, racking up more than 180 ypg, while ND’s 76th-ranked rushing “attack” accounts for a whopping 124 ypg. If Quinn had an o-line that protected him three times as well, and a Top 20 rushing game to take some of the load off his shoulders, does anyone honestly think we’d even be having a legitimate discussion about Troy Smith’s Heisman chances?

Mr. Berk calls Troy Smith “the most important player to his team’s success.” Well, if that’s one of the criteria for the Maxwell, the Heisman, or whatever, then why the hell are we talking about Smith again? Ohio State without Troy Smith still has those receivers, still has that o-line, still has that rushing game, still has that receiving corps, and still has that stifling defense. Without Smith, the Buckeyes are at worst #2 in the Big Ten and still headed to a BCS Bowl.

And the Irish? Hell, forget just two losses. Notre Dame without Brady Quinn is sitting at home right now with a 4-8 record. THAT is what you call an MVP.


Troy Smith will win the Heisman because he’s arguably (although not definitively) the best player on the #1 team in the country–nothing more, nothing less. Statistically, he’ll be the least impressive QB in my lifetime (and I’m 35 years old) to win the Heisman. I still can’t figure out why exactly he won the Davey O’Brien Award as the outstanding QB in the country, given that aside from ranking 4th in quarterback efficiency, he doesn’t rank higher than 32nd in any major statistical category.

Three QBs are more efficient than Smith is. Thirty-two QBs have passed for more yards. Thirty-one QBs have more total offensive yards.  Thirty-six QBs have more completions. And yet Mr. Berk insists the upcoming Heisman ceremony “will prove Smith is the number one player in the country.”

Indeed, Mr. Berk. Just like it did with other vaunted Heisman-winning QBs like Eric Crouch, Chris Weinke, Danny Wuerffel, Charlie Ward, and Gino Torreta.

Let the mass hypnosis continue. Troy Smith for Heisman! (I assume his handlers have reminded him to wear platform shoes to the ceremony. With NFL scouts watching and all, something has got to make up for that extra two inches the OSU media guide gives the kid.)

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  1. Cade:
    the only one focusing on race here is you. How convenient to be the victim and accuse others. This site may be cleaner if it was not for you. BTW, I am American Indian and can read right through your victimology-even nearly a year after the fact.
    Your tone and gesture are not so sportsmanlike and it is obvious you hate ND for a lot of reasons. That’s OK just be a man and say it and not hide behind race and poor little me. BTW, where IS Troy these days?

  2. Individuals like Lunch are daily reminders to me about Buckeye fans. I live here in Columbus and hear it ALL.
    The bashing of the Irish, the wolverine and the Illini.
    Yes, the Illini who won 28-21.
    The excuses pile up AFTER EVERY game win or lose. They should have hit more and why wasn’t this reviewed.
    Some ( 1460 Am) have even bashed the school colors of another team. Why?
    Because the view from 145h and high is myopic at best and I cannot say with children present what it is at worst. Quinn IS the better quarterback. Forget the stats and the tear jerking story of city boy is at the top. Where was Momma then? Now she shows up for the glory? Hmmm.
    They love ot hate Quinn -political booing at his drafting. ND is love to be hated here. Some even say they have a ” 1960’s schedule. ( 610 am) Well, I guess that means one does not play Youngstown state or Akron or Kent ALL in the same year. I know buckeye bashers will thrive the ND plays service academies but that is their own ignorance. A service academy would blow out ANY MAC team. As I recall, an Air Force team beat OSU in a bowl years back.
    We are all mortal. The difference is OSU can’t see beyong the Olentangy river and CANNOT agree to disagree with others regarding the storied program. ND is down now. Perhaps by their standards, we should not have
    any at all-low graduation rate and easy schedule. Wow-what a combination. In 10 years time, OSU players will be digging ditches.

  3. BOB,



  4. Cade,

    Hey thanks for pulling yourself from off your couch and getting back with me, we as Irish fans deeply need to hear your B.S. comments again…By the way Aaron Brooks in your world is also a Pro Bowl player and will be in line for the Hall of Fame, just like Vick, right. Compare to Mcnabb, please…Yeah 2-3 passes, those are the only ones they show on T.V., you should know that (Penn State and uh….that’s about it). By the way do you know about O’Brien or even heard about him prior to this year’s award, probably not. Johnny Unitas is considered one of the two greatest QB’s ever with Montana the other, from of course ND. So please, give us a break with what trophies more important, just admit that not everyone outside of Ohio believes Smith is the best QB.

    Respect winners? Why are you naming Basketball, this is a football site, that’s right there are no examples from Columbus of winners only losers (Clarett). Landslide?, only O.J. has the record for that. And as far as a typical QB, what you described fits Brady not Smith, remember that.

    Well, when draft day comes and your of course as usual sitting on your couch, heck maybe you can help Smith bring his trophies into the draft lounge… You and all the other Smith lovers can sit by and wait and wait and wait for the 2nd or 3rd rounds to hear your name called. And by the way, I hope he scores better on the intellect test they give college players prior to the draft than many of his past buckeyes…

  5. Thank you Bob. You are so right this is USA, so that means I get to post my opinion on THIS site as well. I don’t think any OSU fan deliberately searched for a ND site to be on. Plus, this site would be boring without OSU fans setting you straight. For the record, I am not a buckeye fan just a Troy Smith one. In terms of Vick that was just the short list, the only major thing Vick wasn’t done is win a Super Bowl or be league MVP. Let me also remind you this is only his 6th season, 4 if you take away his rookie year and the year he got hurt in preseason. Why is Randall Cunningham name in this? I hope you don’t think that he holds the record for most rushing yards by a QB in a season, because he’s not former Bear Bobby Douglaas does. Also, Cunningham is eligible for the hall of fame if your trying to insinuate something there. Vick’s trademark is his speed and athleticism, something no QB comes close to, especially Smith. If you what to compare Smith to anyone try McNabb. I guess the last sentence refers to Marcus’ off-field issues. You do understand that they are 2 different people, also Aaron Brooks is their cousin and he doesn’t have any off-field issues.

    Your whole part that starts with “better players” is hard to understand. First, QBs usually don’t roll out the pocket unless its designed or their pressured. 2-3 passes are you kidding, pick up some game film on Troy and you’ll that its WAY MORE than 2-3 passes. “Wow,” Unitas and Maxwell compared to Heisman, O’Brien, and AP Player of the year, let me remind you that no player was ever won all 5. So let me rephase my early comment put anyone around Smith and he still has the ability to scramble and deliver good balls.

    You are entitled to your opinion, but yes you bash. You bashed 2 players in your last post Smith and Vick, who was nothing to do with Smith vs. Quinn for Heisman or how they’ll do in the NFL. Quinn’s talent speaks for itself, yeah whatever you say, in that case Troy’s talent really speaks for itself. The only questions on Troy are the bullshit about his height, character, and race (stuff that ONLY this site focus on). When you make references to the stuff mention you discredit your argument. I’m pretty sure these blogs started from the question: Should Quinn win the Heisman and be the #1 pick in the draft? Why? For most ND fans to answer this question with Troy this, Troy that makes no sense. Both Smith and Quinn are good QB, but Smith is Heisman because he’s a winner. In this country we respect winners, that’s why Jordan is the icon he is or why we have a U.S. basketball team that still refuses to accept an Olympic silver medal. Smith won the Heisman by a landslide so he can’t be as bad as you make him and if he is where does that leave Quinn. This blog mention heisman QBs that did nothing in the NFL (take Charlie Ward off), the same can be done for #1 picks that were bust. Also, Smith has been playing at his height for a while its not like he was 6’5 then shrunk. No QB sees “over” their linemen the avg. O-lineman is 6’6, the prototypical QB is 6’2-6’4.

  6. Cade,

    Well we have yet another “Schmuckeye” on this site, doesn’t OSU have a website for you. Obviously I struck a nerve with you. Regarding Vick, “wow” one playoff game, 15 points from a Super Bowl and the most rushing yards by a QB (like Randall Cunningham). Add all that together and it means “zero”, don’t think his name will go down with the greats let alone even mention of Canton, Ohio. And this is the person Smith is regarding to be somewhat similar to…good future! By the way the family is not exactly the best, right bro…

    Better players, of course…If the blockers are better than he has time to roll out and hit his receivers. By the way if you think because he makes 2-3 perfect passes that he was the best QB. Let me remind you that Johnny Unitas and Maxwell thought differently.

    I don’t bash, just my opinion (this is USA). We (not you) as Irish fans don’t have to rave about Brady, his football talent speaks for itself. Which is why the worst teams in NFL are currently inquiring about him through his High School coach and Charlie. I guess that means #1 pick. If Smith can’t see over his lineman, run as fast as Vick and is not as smart as Brees, where does that leave him…

  7. Bob:

    Thank you for show how ND fans prove their team and players are so great…by bashing other people. Most of the blogs and comments on here are anti-Smith rather than pro-Quinn. Then you add comments about Mike Vick that are unjust. Vick is a 6 year pro who was thrown his middle finger up ONCE, so don’t try and make that one incident his trademark. Vick won his first playoff game in Lambeau against Favre, something no other QB has done, he was like 15 points away from going to the Super Bowl 2 years ago, and this year he’s going to break the record for most rushing yards by a QB in a season. You have it completely turned around about the slice bread, it is ND fans that feel this way about Quinn. I waiting for someone to say he’s the greatest football player ever. How do “better” players make Troy better? i.e how do better players make Troy move around in the pocket to avoid pressure? Or how do better players make him throw a perfect ball on a deep outside curl in the front corner of the endzone? Finally, what do you mean “Smith had better player around him than Brady?” The only thing Smith had better than Quinn was a running game. Besides Smith OSU had ONE offensive player that was a finalist for an award, Doug Datish the center. Also the big thing about Ginn and Gonzalez is their speed, and how it contributes to OSU’s rushing and kick returns. As for ND, Samardzija, you might as well say McKnight too since they had similar numbers, and Carlson were finalist for the award at their postion.

  8. Alex….get off the site….last thing we need is another bozo that thinks Smith is the Greatest thing since sliced bread. By the way, football s played with 11 players on each side of the ball…not just a quarterback…be glad that Smith had better players around him than Brady, end of story. By the way, you must also be one of the numerous “schmuckeyes” that think smith is 6’1″, will be a top three pick, and is compared to Michael Vick (who by the way has not won “anything” in Pro ball – he only knows how to extend his middle fingers).

  9. Leave it to ND to question Smith winning the Heisman. Smith is a better college football player than Quinn, end of story. Maybe if Quinn stepped up and won big games he would’ve had a shot. But stop being homers and acknowledge that Smith was the best player in the country and deserved the award.

  10. Lunch,

    I stand behind what I said about Tressel’s grad. rate. Even if it was acceptable, there’s no way in hell he’d be tops in the Big 10. N’western ain’t exactly a football factory w/ a liberal admissions policy & JoePa has always had one of the highest grad. rates in the nation.

    You misunderstood the Coker comparison. My point was that Coker should know better than anyone that winning trumps any scandal. In other words, had his team been in contention for a Nat’l Title or even a BCS, there’s no way in hell that he gets canned for all the embarrassing incidents that occurred under his watch (Fla. Int’l fight, murdered player, the vulgar rap tape, exhibiting the swagger of “the U” only to get their asses kicked, etc). For proof, just look at the Jimmy Johnson/Dennis Erickson era or even the early years of the Coker era when he was winning. All the incidents would have been soon forgotten had Coker been winning. That’s all I was saying…no comparison to Tressel intended.

    Clausen starting next year is a big “if”. Weis will have some challenge (albeit not a bad problem to have) this spring when he has to choose between Evan Sharpley, Demetrius Jones, Zach Frazer & Clausen. Common sense says one of these kids will transfer or in Sharpley’s case, he’ll quit f’ball to concentrate on baseball. Regardless, it will be one of the most watched spring practices around.

  11. Neb.,

    I appreciate your opinions, but I saw Pittman bust one for a long TD (over 60 yds in the UM game) that regardless of the hole that may or may not have been opened by his OL, there’s no way Walker would have outrun the entire defense (a top ranked Michigan run defense, no less) the way Pittman did. Why? Because he can’t even bust one against the likes of the service academies, UNC, or Stanford. When Brady Quinn owns the longest run from scrimmage over the last four years…that is truly sad.

    I’m not telling you that Pittman will end up being enshrined in Canton, but remember we’re not talking about draft status & pro potential (much like Quinn vs. Smith in Heisman debate), we’re talking who is the better offensive weapon on their respective offense. Walker is a nice addition to a backfield b/c of his pass catching ability. He had become adept at pass blocking last year but, much like the O-Line; he has also regressed in that important skill.

  12. Lunch, I do care that it only goes to a QB or RB. I would have loved to have AJ Hawk up there last year on the podium.

    What I am saying is that if the Heisman is a QB or RB award, at least call it that. Don’t give me the BS that it is for the best player when clearly it’s not.

    And yes, Quinn got screwed at the Heisman ceremony, but before the ceremony, everyone who wasn’t a QB or RB got screwed by never getting a chance to win the award.

  13. No, it would be a farce if we continually had undeserving winners, it is still recognized as the most prestigious award in college football. My point is that you say Quinn “got screwed” because he had better stats so you don’t really care that it usually goes to a QB or a RB, only that your QB lost out to everybody elses QB. How about the all-american team, is that a farce also?

  14. Once again for people like Lunch, I will say that the Heisman is a farce. Yes…even if Brady won it.

    Here is why it is a dog and pony show Lunch. In the entire history of the Heisman trophy there have been only 5 winners that were not QBs or RBs. 5 times. For an award that is presented to the best player in the country, I find it hard to believe that since 1935 the best college football players in the country were almost always QBs and RBs.

    Let me put it in terms that an OSU fan can even understand. If history is our guide, even Ted Ginn Jr. won’t have a shot at the heisman.

  15. Nebraska!

    Could you clarify? For a person who dislikes anything ND how is it that you know so much about ND? And, why is it you have so much to say about ND, and why are you on this blog?

  16. Irish Realist:

    Not saying that Carlson didn’t deserve it, just giving you reasons why. These awards are not “lifetime achievement awards” per se, but the way it usually works is that a guy needs at least a season first for the media to learn about him and consider him a candidate. I really do not have a problem with that in most cases: it benefitted Brady Quinn this year incidentally because there is NO WAY he is a Heisman candidate this year if he wasn’t the top returning candidate from last year. And also, the thing to remember about Carlson, though he did have more receiving yards than the other candidates, tough to get around the fact that he was only 3rd on his own team in yards and 4th in receptions. A lot of times the Mackey Award winner is a guy who was the focal point of the offense like Marcedes Lewis of UCLA was. And no, I am not overly impressed with Antonio Pittman. Despite that great offensive line, a program centered around running the football, and a passing game that is, er, pretty good, he is only getting 97 yards a game, 3 more than Walker. Pittman and Walker will be taken in about the same position in the NFL draft next season, and Walker will have a longer career.

  17. Irish,

    Once again you are right, I should not paint all ND fans with the same brush but the majority of comments here are hypocritical. Such as Lefty saying the Heisman is a “dog and pony show anyway”. If Quinn had won he would probably be the first on here saying that ND had captured their 8th Heisman but instead it is a meaningless award.

    Now, I am sure you will correct me again but I think OSU has one of the better graduation rates in the Big Ten under Jim Tressel, if not the best. And to mention Miami (Larry Coker) in the same breath as OSU is just an insult, there is no comparison.

    We will never know how Quinn would have done without the superior coaching of Weis or Palmer without Chow but my point is only that experience, especially at QB, is a determining factor in how a young QB performs. And let me turn it around on you – we don’t know if Clausen will start next year but if he does and doesn’t “set the world on fire” can we at least agree that he is not a bust AND Weis is not a genius?

  18. Nebraska,

    WHy should the fact that Carlson is a 1st year starter matter? I didn’t think these post season honors were “lifetime acheivement” awards. And I don’t see him missing the last 2 games being a big deal as his numbers were still better than the other 2 finalists. Granted, as I said, I’m only going by numbers & what I’ve seen from Carlson. I couldn’t tell you a thing about the other 2 guys b/c I don’t follow Minnesota & Arizona St.(?). Again, it’s not a big deal, I was just curious as to how they choose.

  19. Lunch,

    You had some acceptable arguments until that last classy statement. What are you 17 yrs old? I’ve read better puns in high school on the bathroom wall.

    What is your obsession w/ “you ND fans” that you label every fan as having something bad to say about your precious Troy? I don’t think a few jabs by some of the posters qualifies as the entire fan base of ND. Besides, these kids are in the public eye, and when they make a misstep they better be prepared for the reprecussions. Life’s a bitch, wear a helmet.

    Another obsession you haters have is w/ Charlie Weis. Maybe you get on too many ND boards, but I don’t see him being labeled a genius every time his name is spoken.

    And you don’t hear Tressel “blowing his own horn” b/c he knows to stay in the background or his embarrassing graduation rate among his players will be brought out. It’s a fact he has one of, if not the, worst graduation rates among Division I teams. It’s even lower when you break it down racial lines. Now I don’t have a problem w/ it, their not my kids & winning trumps all (just ask Larry Coker) but the less he stays out of the press, the less chance of this fact being brought up. After the Clarett incident, I can see where he’s had enough of the ‘hot seat’ that the press loves to put people on.

    Paul Hacket was considered an offensive genius in the NFL but some coaches are better lieutenants than generals. Doesn’t mean he’s a bad person, he just couldn’t get the job done at SC. Your argument about Weis not being the reason for Quinn’s improvement will never be answered b/c no one can say for sure whether Quinn would have kept progressing at the rate he did. I think he would have gotten moderately better w/o Weis’ tutelage, but I personally don’t think he would have put up his record breaking numbers & been in the top 5 in Heisman voting these last 2 years had he been under Willingham.

    But if you’re right & coaching doesn’t matter, than I guess you won’t be able to criticize whomever QBs ND next year b/c the QB will most likely be a red-shirt or true freshman. And according to your argument, QBs don’t set the world on fire their 1st 2 years.

  20. Nebraska,

    Surely you don’t think that Darius Walker is a more complete back than Antonio Pittman or Chris Wells? I don’t recall Walker being heavily recruited by OSU, I’ll take your word for it. I seem to remember it coming down to ND & Georgia w/ Arkansas a distant 3rd b/c his old man played there under Holtz.

  21. Irish Realist:

    You do realize that Ohio State heavily recruited and badly wanted Darius Walker, and if he was at Ohio State he’d be starting. But that was never my point. My point was that Ohio State does not have the talent on offense that Miami had with Ken Dorsey or USC had with Matt Leinart.

  22. Nebraska,

    You’ve never heard me brag about ND’s talent at WR & RB…just the opposite. I can settle for the WR but I’m the 1st to note that neither have world-class speed like a Teddy Ginn, Jr. And I’m sure Darius Walker is a great kid, but he’s no feature back. Good pass catcher & runs the draw well, but no homerun threat. Only a blind person would argue that ND has superior talent at either position.

  23. Screw the Heisman. It’s a dog and pony show anyway. If popularity meant everything, my prom king would be mayor rather than washing floors at McDonnalds. Both are accomplished QBs, both have the talent to make it at the next level, but one has better stats and got screwed this saturday.

    Buckeye Realist:
    Yes your team deserves to be in the championship game. Good for you, but don’t even try to pull this crap that you have the best QB in the nation.

  24. Frank:

    In that same post I also mentioned Ryan Leaf, Rick Mirer, and Tim Couch in addition to Akili Smith. Look, we all know that in truth NONE of those guys have ANYTHING to do with Brady Quinn. Quinn is going to succeed (almost certainly) or fail (extremely unlikely) based on his own ability, work ethic, and merit (all of which are substantial). IMHO Quinn is going to be one of those guys whose NFL career is going to be better than his college career was because his skills are better suited to the NFL game than to the college one. But all of that is besides the point. My only point was that draft position does not “prove” who was a better college player, and it doesn’t even determine who will ultimately be a better NFL one. Now as to Tim Brown, a lot of ND fans have used the dumb argument that Quinn’s better stats PLUS his playing for a lesser team (lesser than who? Louisville? Boise? Wake Forest?) ought to earn him the award. I was merely responding with a guy who had mediocre stats AND played for a poor team. Voters did not hold the fact that Tim Brown played in Lou Holtz’s offense against him, because they knew that if he was playing for Miami or UCLA his numbers would have been incredible, just like everyone knows that if Troy Smith played for virtually anyone else but Tressel his numbers would have been a lot better (even if Tressel does deserve huge credit for developing his exceedingly raw talent and putting up with his off – the – field nonsense). ND fans know that Tim Brown getting the Heisman over guys who put up bigger numbers for better teams was a huge controversy; that lots of folks claimed that had Brown played at any other school than ND he would have never even been a finalist.

    Irish Realist:

    Carlson probably didn’t win the Mackey Award because A) this was his first season as a starter and B) he got injured. As to Smith versus Quinn in the NFL, why does it have to be either/or? I say that Quinn has a better chance of NFL success than pretty much any dropback QB since Peyton Manning. Now as for Smith, he is actually the BEST PREPARED of all the running QBs. All of the other running QBs played in option or gimmick offenses (Donovan McNabb, Vince Young, Kordell Stewart, Warren Moon) or they played at small schools (Steve McNair, Daunte Culpepper, Alex Smith, Doug Williams) or both. None of those guys threw for 30 TDs working mostly out of the pocket for a major college program; one that incidentally has less offensive talent than ND fans like to pretend, especially at RB and WR.

  25. I’m a Clevelander who must have Troy Smith shoved down my throat 24/7, so I’m more than a little sick of the “sainthood” bestowed upon him. Conveniently shoved under the rug was a recent occurance. OSU, Tressel, Smith & some other players were honored by a well known local group. Smith was to get an award and much hoopla was made of them coming to town. Well, guess what- Smith never showed & Tressel had no idea where he was. It was joked about re: his always being late, etc. It was noted several days later that he was @ the Cleveland Cavaliers basketball game with his entourage. His inner city high school, the city of CLeveland, etc. were all there to pay homage and he, obviously, felt it better served him to go and see LeBron and get his adulation there. Sorry, but this would NEVER have happened with Weiss & Quinn. Guess that’s why Troy Smith will be a distant memory in years to come when Brady is playing on Sundays. Intelligence, class, and morals will always distinguish ND and it’s players from schools such as OSU.

  26. You are right, I am particular about the facts and if I make a mistake then I would expect you to point it out, that is only fair. As for Weis, I think he is the beneficiary of great timing. I understand that ND fans are not great fans of Bob Davie and you may not think that much of Paul Hackett but I think there are similarities between Palmer and Quinn. Not every QB can come in as a freshman or even sophomore and set the world on fire but does that make it the coaches fault? If anything, the job Tressel and Daniels did with Troy Smith is worthy of the type of praise Weis gets. After all, you ND fans have pointed out Troys many shortcomings whereas Brady Quinn was recruited by everybody so where has the better coaching job been taking place? Tressel doesn’t blow his own horn and Charlie just blows.

  27. At Lunch (you gotta pick a better name dude),

    You Buckeyes are taking Weis’ “offensive genius” tag kinda personal arent you? I don’t watch as much NFL as I do college f’ball, but I believe Weis earned that title from his boss, his peers & the press by leading an offense w/ no true “superstars” (although Brady may be considered one now) to 3 Super Bowls. It doesn’t mean he’ll be the next Knute Rockne but I think it’s safe to say he’s not the next Bob Davie, either. Plus, the press are the ones that annoint these people, the fans don’t print/report media they just get on blogs like this and talk out their respective asses to debate or blow off steam.

    Carson Palmer was a highly recruited player before playing at USC & you might remember that he wasn’t setting the world on fire during the Paul Hackett regime (check his TD/INT ratio and W/L record). Look what a difference a coach(es) makes. Enter Pete Carroll & Norm Chow and Palmer goes from another high school phenom turned flop to Heisman Trophy winner. So it’s not a stretch to say that Weis & his offensive playbook are what elevated Brady Quinn from average to 1st round draft pick.

    Finally, the Heisman argument has loooong been settled and you’re not gonna find too many people (Irish fans) denying Smith’s worthiness…only the fact that no other QB, incl. Smith, could’ve led an average ND team to a better record than Quinn has these last 2 years. By the way, Quinn is a true senior & Smith is a 5th yr senior. You stated they were the same class. No big deal, but you seemed pretty particular about the facts.

  28. Van, well it seems we have another Buckeye fan on a Notre Dame website…Anyways, regarding the “cupcake” issue you forgot to mention Cincy, Illinois, Indiana, Northwestern, etc..By the way seven (7) teams that ND played are going to Bowl Games including Navy.
    Next, if the only record to take with you to the NFL is beating Michigan three times don’t make reservations for the first two rounds, nobody outside of Ohio cares or thinks you can get a “free bus ride or a free cup of coffee” with that record!
    Next, unfortunately when you play a “cupcake” schedule you will blow teams away and unfortunately the quarterback is taken out. So maybe scheduling tough teams might be the answer…and I see the powerhouse of Division 1-AA, sorry Division 1 now, Youngstown St. is on your 2007 schedule.
    Next, that’s right the millions that Bush made in 2006 contract allowed him to live “under a bridge”…get real, there’s money to be made that first contract, the second will depend on how you have progressed as a player. And, the issue I’m implying is simple…but obviously you live under a rock and don’t keep up with society trends. You might try to watch ESPN, BET, MTV….keep up.
    Next, you obviously did not watch the awards show and see that Brady stands at least 4-5 inches taller than Troy…And by the way “6’0″ keep dreaming 5’10” at best.
    Next, never mentioned Brady’s good looks but it sounds like you like “guys”, to each his own. Troy’s character has been inquestion from him elbowing a kid in the head to him missing a Buckeye banquet to watch a Cavs basketball game…I don’t hear these stories with Brady…do you?

  29. Several takes on Bob’s comments

    The main and only reason I see why Troy won the Heisman was because his team is ranked #1 and they are playing for the National Championship PERIOD. RESPONSE — This is the criteria (QB of the best team) that is oftentimes applied to Tom Brady (who Brady Quinn is oftentimes compared to) Bart Starr, and Joe Montana. When you win as a QB, you receive probably more credit than you deserve, as well as the opposite. And if Quinn had Smith’s numbers, and ND was #1, you would be making the argument for Quinn.

    Troy v. Brady

    (1) Smith had better talent around him (running game/defense/offensive line), along with a “cupcake” schedule. Quinn had none of the above except for the schedule. RESPONSE – ND was dominated by Michigan, dominated Penn State, had a solid victory over Purdue, and barely edged Michigan State. Based on this, ND would be at best either the third or fourth best team in a “cupcake conference”. And you also forgot to add coaching to your “better” list. OSU rebuilt their defensive after losing nine starters, so it is not quite all about talent.

    (2) Smith will leave College with a degree, Quinn leaves with a double major (Business/Political Science) in 3 1/2 years, he also plans to attend Law School in the future. RESPONSE – Irrelevant to the football issue, but credit should be given to BOTH individuals for achieving academic and athletic success.

    (3) Smith leaves with NO school passing records if any (maybe 1 or 2), Brady leaves with no less than 30 school records.
    RESPONSE – Once again, it’s about wins. However, Smith’s statistics are understated, because he was frequently pulled early, as Tressel does not believe in running up the score against opponents, and OSU had a balanced offense. Smith does have a record that is only shared by one other OSU player, a 3-0 record against Michigan. And he had a pretty good game against ND in the Fiesta Bowl too, remember?

    (4) Smith is not projected any earlier than the 3rd round of the NFL Draft (proven by 7-10 national draft personnel, all of whom are outside of Ohio and are not BIAS). By the way only a first rounder is guaranteed money, so Troy don’t be spending your “Bling Bling” too soon. Brady, first pick if not top three = millions of dollars. RESPONSE – The second contract is the contract where players make their money. And there is no correlation with money and success (there are plenty of losers with big contracts). Your “Bling Bling” comment seems to indicate that you have other issues that you are trying imply, and we need to get away from things like this. Why can’t both QBs be respected for the great players that they are?

    When NFL teams look at draft picks, they don’t care how many trophies you won they care about your performance on the field, intellect, physical shape, and sorry for you Buckeye fans “Character”. This does not include beating Michigan three times… RESPONSE — Good analogy until your last argument, as beating your rival is important. Both QB’s meet the other criteria. PS Many scouts have only one flaw with Smith which is height, as he is a legitimate 6’0″ not 6’1″, which is why he is oftentimes compared to Drew Brees.

    It was evident at the award shows that whatever team takes Brady will feel they have not only a great quarterback, but also a person with humility, character, intellect, and a person that puts his TEAM first before himself…. RESPONSE – Sounds like you have a little bit of a crush on Brady, which is understandable because he is a good-looking guy.

    P.S. By the way, the story of inner city kid growing up and winning the Heisman has been played before…Old Story RESPONSE – Once again, why bring this up. Sounds like you don’t want players like Smith at ND, or are you trying to imply that they can only play certain positions at ND. Perceptions like this will not help ND in their national recruiting, and trust me, recruiters to use this to work against ND. Don’t make Charlie Weis’ job harder for recruiting. Do you think he would agree with your take on Smith? Don’t provide “bulletin board” material for your recruiting rivals.

    ND has a great QB prospect, Clausen, coming in. Please give the kid a chance before you put unrealistic expectations on him. The best way for ND to have a Heisman QB, is to truly have a BCS Championship worthy team.

    PS The BCS games will provide an interesting way to gauge both QB’s as they will be going against top SEC teams with great, fast defenses that will give each of them a taste of what they will facing at the next level. Several scouts have pointed this out, and they have also said it is time for Quinn to rise above the deficiencies of his team and WIN a big game to end ND’s bowl losing streak.

  30. As opposed to you, Out To Lunch! You still don’t get it, the NFL has NOTHING to do with the Heisman. You guys have been making your case for Brady over Troy, why? Brady didn’t even finish second! The last time OSU played a real cupcake team was when they romped over Notre Dame and Troy set a record in that game that you didn’t mention. Oops, sorry that was a Notre Dame record for most yards ever given up by this “storied” program. Will Notre Dame fans please finally admit it, the best player won the Heisman and I will tell you why a lot of fans dislike Notre Dame. All we hear is Charlie Weis this and Charlie Weis that, how he “developed” Brady Quinn into a Heisman Trophy contender, That is crap! Brady Quinn was heavily recruited by everybody, OSU included, and started to show his promise as a junior in his third season as a starter. Isn’t that normal? Yet Troy Smith was given the last scholarship that OSU had to give, as an athlete no less, in the very same year and when he wins the Heisman Trophy nobody, except Troy himself is clamoring to anoint Jim Tressel and/or Joe Daniels as the geniuses responsible his success. Why? Bob, your comments don’t show the intellect that you say Troy is lacking. Performance on the field? Please, Troy is 11-1 against ranked teams and you can say that he has talent around him but they were 0-1 last year without him starting, against Texas. Beating Michigan 3 times doesn’t matter? Only because it is something Brady couldn’t do. NFL teams want QBs who can win games. I guess you would probably want Marino or Manning over Aikman or Brady. Stats are for losers. Troy wins games, Heisman Trophies, and soon a National Championship not long after Brady, in fine physical shape (Troy’s not? What are you thinking?) gets his lunch handed to him again, this time by LSU. Finally, Bob, who are you to question Troy’s character?

  31. Since this Heisman discussion has been beaten beyond a dead horse (& there’s really no argument as to who won), I wanted to see if anyone could offer a valid reason why John Carlson didn’t win the Mackey Award. I’ll admit I’m not schooled on the seasons that his 2 fellow finalists had, but Carlson had better #s in only 10 games whereas the 2 finalists played the entire season. If you watched Carlson this year, you had to be impressed w/ the big guy’s athleticism & soft hands. He’s a helluva blocker, too & was sorely missed in the USC game. I’m hearing he’ll return for a 5th year, but can’t imagine he’ll put up similar numbers with a new QB starting for the 1st time in his collegiate career. I know all these awards are pretty meaningless but I thought Carlson was a slam-dunk. Anyway, I’m sure all the Irish who were finalists would prefer a bowl win.

  32. Nebraska,

    Yeah, I could see where you were going. You wanted to point out some QBs that were drafted high & flopped. Since Quinn has started for 4 years & SEEMS to have what it takes to make a seamless transition to the NFL, I’d probably have used some more comparable examples like Couch, Rick Mirer, Todd Blackledge, Ryan Leaf or the list goes on. Smith seemed to be more of a project based on his limited college success. Had he started all 4 yrs @ Oregon…who knows?

    Bottom line: none of us can say beyond a shadow of a doubt whether Quinn or Smith will succeed or fail at the next level. Time will tell, though it is fair to say that Quinn SEEMS to have the edge at being the better pro QB, but stranger things have happended. If Cleveland gets one of the top picks, I’m starting to hear that they MUST consider taking Troy Smith. Not only based on his college success & athleticism but also the marketing benefit they’d get by having a hometown guy.

  33. The main and only reason I see why Troy won the Heisman was because hs team is ranked #1 and they are playing for the National Championship PERIOD.
    Troy v. Brady
    (1)Smith had better talent around him (running game/defense/offensive line), along with a “cupcake” schedule. Quinn had none of the above except for the schedule.
    (2)Smith will leave College with a degree, Quinn leaves with a double major (Business/Political Science) in 3 1/2 years, he also plans to attend Law School in the future.
    (3)Smith leaves with NO school passing records if any (maybe 1 or 2), Brady leaves with no less than 30 school records.
    (4)Smith is not projected any earlier than the 3rd round of the NFL Draft (proven by 7-10 national draft personnel, all of whom are outside of Ohio and are not BIAS). By the way only a first rounder is guaranteed money, so Troy don’t be spending your “Bling Bling” too soon. Brady, first pick if not top three = millions of dollars.

    When NFL teams look at draft picks, they don’t care how many trophies you won they care about your performance on the field, intellect, physical shape, and sorry for you Buckeye fans “Character”. This does not include beating Michigan three times…

    It was evident at the award shows that what ever team takes Brady will feel they have not only a great quarterback, but also a person with humility, character, intellect, and a person that puts his TEAM first before himself….

    P.S. By the way, the story of inner city kid growing up and winning the Heisman has been played before…Old Story

  34. Nebraska,

    You were the one that said Quinn could be the next Akili Smith which is a really bad hypothetical situation. If Quinn doesn’t pan out in the NFL its not going to be because he can’t pick up a new playbook or read defenses correctly which is what was Smith’s undoing.

    As for Tim Brown, the argument for him in ’87 is different than the argument for Smith this year. Brown was on an 8-4 team and won the award despte not being surrounded by an abundance of talent.

    Any more comparisons you’d like me to breakdown for you?

  35. Irish Realist:

    OK, so I have flaws, including being a hypocrite myself. But tell me this: you knew that I was not comparing Brady Quinn to Akili Smith, did you not?

  36. Frank,

    Don’t sweat Nebraska. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black or to use his term for you: hypocrite. Just check out Nebraska’s posts & you’ll see that when someone responds to or questions him, that he, too; tends to latch on to one item while ignoring every other point the poster makes. Nebraska is capable of making some good points, but he tends to prefer dishing out the criticism rather than receiving it.

  37. Both articles are off base. First, and foremost, both of these QBs are very good but different. It would be nice if the supporters of each of these QBs showed as much class as they have, as they both praised each other at the recent awards show. But back to this article; quoting stats is often heard from a loser’s perspective, as you seldom hear a winner talking about their statistics. You play to win, not for stats (If we want to use stats, Colt Brennen wins hands down) . The only major difference between Smith and Quinn is that Smith has had his best performances in his “marquee games”, while Quinn has yet to do so. There is a simple way to put this conversation to bed == Quinn needs to have a big game against BCS opponent LSU, outplay JaMarcus Russell (who is a QB with almost identical stats), and WIN the game.

    And as for who will have the more successful career in the NFL, it is a total crap shoot, as success or failure depends on many factors such as draft position, coach, offensive system, skill players, and most importantly, the quality of the offensive line.

  38. Frank:

    Dude, you know perfectly well that I am not comparing Akili Smith to Brady Quinn. You merely latched on that pretense so that you could ignore everything else that I said. That proves that you guys are just being hypocrites. You all know very well that NFL success doesn’t somehow “validate” your greatness as a college player. You all know very well that it is possible to be on a great team and still be a great player. And you all know very well that you can be a great player without having the best stats. That you are all pretending otherwise does not advance Quinn in any way; rather it only diminishes the person making what he knows to be a self – serving dishonest argument. You all know very well that if the situations were reversed, you would be making the exact same arguments that Ohio State fans are making for Smith and against Quinn right now. Here’s my proof: how many of you were outraged at Tim Brown winning the 1987 Heisman on 827 yards and 8 TDs, since it is all about numbers? There were receivers (not to mention QBs and RBs) with better numbers that year. As a matter of fact, there were guys with better numbers who played on better teams! So, are you guys going to start clamoring for Brown to give his Heisman back? Of course not.

  39. To: True ND Fans

    Can we all agree that this guy “Nebraska” is a Joke! His knowledge of College Football comes from a Cracker Jack box. Throughout most of his articles, “Nebraska” makes claims and comments that belong on a bathroom stall. “Nebraska”, please do us all a favor and go back to your couch, drink your draft beer, and stop being jealous of NOTRE DAME….

  40. Hey Nebraska,

    Your comparison of Quinn to Akili Smith is completely assine. Smith had 1 season as a starter and was drafted on potential alone. NFL Scouts saw a lot of raw skill in Smith and unfortunately for him, he went to Cinci where they rushed him into a starting role before he was ready.

    Now to compare Akili Smith and Quinn is just ridiculous. Quinn’s a 4 year starter and is one of the more polished quarterbacks to come out of college in a long time.

  41. I thought that this was a good read and so great points were made but I am yet to read an article concerning the two QB that actually evaluated both of the prospects without in some way, shape or form, did not bash or poke fun at one to lift the other on a pedistal. Both are good QBs, one has tons of talent around, the other not as much but that should not be held against either. Quinn has shown that with constant pressure (Gtech, Tenn,) he can make things happen, but he has also showed that he can let the pressure get to him (Michigan). Troy Smith has shown that he will show up in the big game and pull it out (Mich, Texas), but he has also shown that he is human and has played poorly at times (Penn St,Penn ST last year). Either way both have established themselves as ligit contenders for every award they have been up for, and outside of the Heisman for either of them to win whatever award it is should not be a shock because they both deserve it.

  42. All I can say is both had good years. Smith won the big games (with the help from the rest of the #1 team in the nation) while Quinn put up WAY MORE IMPRESSIVE #’s. More attempts with more TD’s and the same amount of INT’s proves Quinn is better + when it comes down to pressure and having to make it happen I don’t think there are ANY questions about who the best leader and pressure player is!!! Anyone remember 80 yards in 3 plays and 36 seconds for a game winning TD??? When was Smith ever exposed to a pressure situation that called for perfection? He was never behind in a game. For Smith to be considered a “scrambler” it is amusing that Quinn has more rushing TD’s than Smith (I may be wrong on that stat but think I am right). Now rushing yards are lopsided but I think Weis says it best when he says there are “smart sacks” where a tough Quinn ate it so he didn’t throw a pick and that comes back to a mediocre offensive line NOT doing THEIR jobs. Anyway, we all know Smith will be a 3rd stringer for years to come in the NFL!!!

  43. Bob Bixby:

    All the NFL draft will do is choose which QB has the most NFL potential, not which one had a better college career or was a better college QB. After all, Vince Young went above Matt Leinart, remember? And even then, NFL draftniks are often wrong. Ryan Leaf went #2 overall, and didn’t make it through 2 NFL seasons. Meanwhile Matt Hasselbeck goes 187 overall (6th round) and is a Pro Bowler who led Seattle to the Super Bowl last year. Another example: in 1993, Rick Mirer went #2 overall, and Mark Brunell went in round 5, and Trent Green went in round 8.

    But certainly you folks aren’t claiming that Charlie Ward, Danny Wuerrfel, and Eric Crouch weren’t dominant college players just because they didn’t do anything in the NFL; your own Tony Rice would certainly qualify. Just wait until ND has a guy who is great in college but not regarded as an NFL prospect because he is a little too short and has a weak arm, and Michigan or Ohio State has the guy who throws the ball 80 yards and is 6’5″.

    And just remember: there is a chance that Troy Smith will be the next Drew Brees (or Joe Theismann) while Brady Quinn the next Akili Smith or Tim Couch. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16084537/

  44. An excellent article.
    After all the rhetoric; and all the huffing and puffing by BOTH ND and Ohio State……the facts of the matter are that Troy Smith is deserving of the Heisman Trophy; and Brady Quinn is deserving of The MAxwell Trophy.
    As far as the Davey O’BRien Award….next April the NFL scouts and coaches….(NOT the agenda-driven coleege coaches; or the Harris panelists; or the HEisman voters; or anyone else) will make a statement who they believe the best QB is.
    Finally; statistics can be manipulated just about anyway you would want to manipulate them. Should Brady have had a better O-line and running game…[like Troy Smith]…then very likely his passing statistics would have gone DOWN; because ND would have been running the ball more often. Maybe.

    Anyway; good article. Keep up the passion

    Bob Bixby
    Class of 1973
    Go Irish !!!!!!!!!

  45. Bottom line, who will be the better NFL QB, hands down…Quinn. Smith should be turned into a WR in the NFL. The Heisman trophy is a joke year after year with the likes of Ty Detmer and Gino Torreta winning it. Take Smith off of OSU and they win, take Quinn off of ND and they lose…bottom line.

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