Notre Dame-Navy in Primetime NOT What Irish Schedule Needed

I’ve been on record here as stating that what Notre Dame has intentionally done with their end of the season schedule this fall makes no sense whatsoever and that they could have scheduled themselves out of a playoff.  Well, that end of year slate of games just got a tick more difficult with the announcement on Wednesday by CBS that the October 27th Notre Dame – Navy game in San Diego will be an 8:00 PM ET kickoff.

Just what Notre Dame needed for the 2018 schedule – another night game.  Not only another night game, but another road night game.  Notre Dame already has a record three home night games this season – Michigan, Stanford, and Florida State.  This makes the fourth and it would be surprising if Notre Dame’s first ever trip to Blacksburg to take on Virginia Tech isn’t in prime time.  The USC game could easily become #5 if the Irish head to Southern California highly ranked to close the season as well.

Now, before anyone gets all high and mighty about how Navy should never be a tough game and all that, just stop.  We all know Navy shouldn’t be a tough game and the reason this makes the end of the season a bit harder isn’t the opponent, it’s the addition of a night game being played in California for a Navy “home” game 3,000+ miles from the Naval Academy. The Irish will reportedly fly home on Sunday morning to mitigate some jet lag, but even that will throw off their schedules.

With the Navy game now scheduled for prime-time, Notre Dame will have to play a night game on the road in California, travel home for a quick road trip to Chicago the following weekend to take on a pretty good Northwestern squad, host Florida State the weekend after, then travel to New York to play Syracuse in Yankee Stadium in what could have been a Notre Dame home game, before ending the year back in California to take on Southern Cal Thanksgiving weekend.

Anyone who travels for business will tell you that much travel takes its toll on an individual when you are just traveling let alone playing three plus hour of grueling football.  And if you don’t travel that much, don’t scoff at that notion.  It’s 100% true.

In a video game scenario this run of games shouldn’t be as hard as it will be for Notre Dame.  In real life though, a stretch of games that shouldn’t be that tough has been unnecessarily been made more difficult than it should be.  Consider what the final five games of the season could have been had games not been moved to different venues to time slots for the sake of marketing.

  • October 27: Notre Dame travels to Baltimore to play Navy in noon kick-off and is home in South Bend Saturday night
  • November 3: Notre Dame makes a short trip to Evanston to play Northwestern in another noon game and gets on a bus home to South Bend the same day
  • November 11: Notre Dame hosts Florida State at a standard 3:30 kick-off
  • November 18: Notre Dame stays home again for a standard 3:30 kick-off against Syracuse
  • November 25: Notre Dame travels to California like it does every last week of November and plays USC

Doesn’t that look a whole heck of a lot nicer and easier on the student athletes who are actually playing the games? In that scenario, Notre Dame leaves the eastern and central time zones just once, gets on a plane just twice, and plays two of its final three games in its home stadium.  Instead the Irish will play one game in Notre Dame Stadium after October 13 this season. It just wasn’t smart scheduling from the get go.  The extra night game only compounds the issue.

Again, ending the season with Navy, Northwestern, Florida State, Syracuse, and USC is challenging (assuming Florida State returns to prominence) but manageable on the surface.  The problem with what has happened to the end of the schedule is that it’s been artificially made difficult with very little reward for Notre Dame.  Will Notre Dame get any added benefit to playing Navy in San Diego at night or Syracuse in Yankee Stadium in the CFP Rankings?  No.  Those are games that Notre Dame is expected to win big and if they don’t no one is going to care about anything else.

So in the end, what is Notre Dame gaining for all of this?  Not much.

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  1. We should certainly pray for GK on this site, all of us.

    SFR: Welcome back!

    BGC ’77 ’82

  2. BGC and any other mentally ill, first let me say We are all very blessed to be Roman Catholic. Especially so with Notre Dame the Mother of God protecting students, faculty, and staff. I used to sell Religious articles. From early upbringing I knew about a few Saints and what they were the patron of. More than a few distraught would ask for St. Dymphna medals. I looked Her up and found Her to be Patron Saint of Mentally ill. Now that I have cancer I thought who can help me now. I remember selling a good number of St. Peregrine statues and Medals. I pray to St. Peregrine to help me with this malady.
    Two funny story’s, Young Mother’s would come asking for St. Sebastian medals. After they left I looked Him up. Sure enough, for unruly children. St. Joseph Statues are still very popular for selling homes. Realtors would buy them a dozen at a time. Two women came in and were about ready to purchase St. Joseph Statues One looked at me skeptically, “ do these really work” I would answer, “ even non- believers purchase them”
    My Dad, first generation Irish, never attended a Notre Dame game, although He was a super believing Irish fan. I think He would have got to choked up. He was in His 20’s during the Leahy era and when I became a Notre Dame disciple during the Ara era He had the faith and always knew the Irish would come back and Win. Now that Notre Dame is so entrenched in American Society the opposition becomes even more emotional than the Fighting Irish. I just love when a new recruit says “ I can feel it, this is where I belong”

    1. Greg,
      The Catholic Church is a mixed bag historically on the issue of the mentally ill, as it seems to be on many things. But just as with everything else from capitol punishment and just wars to the crusades to birth control to divine rights of kings and the peasant revolts, to good priests as opposed to corrupt ones, I choose to dwell on our better angels…simply because they are better! So I appreciate and support your statements above on the Church and the mentally ill.

      BGC ’77 ’82

      1. I have to add this for my mentally ill brothers and sisters: prayer and intercession are good, useful and important…but stay on your meds! (I know, the side effects suck…believe me, I know!!!) But trying to get “cured” by prayer is no more likely to work than praying that a limb severed in a farm accident miraculously reattach and function again, or that a bad case of diabetes miraculously disappears. Prayer has its place, but it should never replace good medicine. Take the meds and pray that they work and that the side effects are not worse than the disease. Many cancer patients can probably relate to that!

        BGC ’77 ’82

      2. BGC’s reply reminded me of a joke/parable of sorts….

        A woman was living in area that was projected to have historic flooding and evacuations were ordered. She told her family that she wouldn’t leave and God would protect her.

        As the flooding started the Fire Department showed up at her door with their trucks to escort her out of the Area. She told them she wasn’t leaving God would protect her.

        As the flooding intensified emergency workers showed up in boats to rescue her. She told them she wasn’t leaving that God would protect her.

        The flooding rose and the woman was forced to stand on her roof to stay out of the water. A helicopter arrived to rescue her and once again she said she wasn’t leaving and God would protect her.

        Unfortunately hours later she was overcome by the water and passed away.

        When she arrived at the pearly gates she was allowed to ask God one question. She said with tears running down her face “Lord, I had faith in your salvation and protection. I was a devout believer, why did you not save me from the flooding?”

        God responded, “I allowed you to hear a warning of what was to come, I sent firefighters to your door to get you out, I sent boats through the flooded streets to bring you to safety, and I even had a helicopter fly through the storm to pick you off of your roof when you were in the greatest danger. What else would you have me do?”

        Sometimes God’s healing powers don’t come in the form of miracles. They come through counseling, medicine, and foresight. I know I sometimes lose sight of the fact that everything around us is God’s work, and though man may claim credit for his creations they are always truly created by his hand.

    2. stated that you have cancer and were wondering which saint can help you now. My answer to that is there is no saint that can help you they don’t have the power to help you. Jesus can help you and only Jesus, no saint or Mary or Joseph or Michael et.all. To the rest of the folks on this thread I apologize if I sound all holier than thou on a ND football thread but I just didn’t want to keep silent on this matter. I, too, am a ND fan and have been for decades and with that said…go Irish!

      1. DS, As a c to g Roman Catholic We don’t pray to Saints for Salvation, rather for inspiration and intervention.
        My Dear Mother had a brain hemmorage in the 1960’s. She lay in a coma for six weeks. One of my younger brothers had but a quarter to his name. He bought Her a St. Martin Des Porres Statue and put it on the sill in Her hospital room. The first thing She recognized was that statue. She always attributed this as a miracle of divine intervention.
        Major Gregory “ Pappy” Boyington was bobbing in the sea off the coast of Japan, He reached in His leather flight jacket, not for a rabbits foot but pulled out a Holy card someone had given Him. Just then a Japanese sub rose up and rescued Him.
        I have stage 1V Prostate cancer and have been through 14 chemo treatments, radiation, oral drugs. Nothing has worked . It has all failed. However, my famed Urologist tells me a new wonder drug is about ready. The treatment isn’t bad at all. It’s the side effects that are brutal. I carry my St. Peregrine holy card in my pocket. I know He can’t cure me, but is pulling for me and when I get to Heaven at least I will have one extra special friend.
        I live to see my Fighting Irish football team come running out of the tunnel led by the Leprechaun on opening Day.

      2. “Doc Savage,”

        This isn’t the forum to go in to too much detail on theological matters.

        However, it doesn’t take a Th. D. or D. Div. to point out that intercessory prayer is commended and commanded in the Bible, even by Jesus Himself.

        The saints are not being prayed to as in worship. They are praying with us as intercessors. While Jesus is our sole mediator between us and God, He nonetheless asks for us to pray for one another.

        If only the prayers of the righteous are of much avail, then the saints in Heaven, who have run their race of faith, received their victor’s crown, and have heard from the Lord “Well done, my good and faithful servant” are ideal intercessors!

        I would suggest that if you’re so interested in this theological topic you felt compelled to respond, then it behooves you to study more of Catholic theology on the intercession of the saints.

        Let me suggest you begin by doing a quick study of the difference between “dulia” and “latria”.

        Pax vobis!

    3. Mentally ill and Roman Catholic. That first sentence had such potential for a breakthrough for you.

      1. As opposed to “mentally ill” and “David” that has no potential for anything or for a breakthrough for anyone!

  3. As far as the 2018 schedule–it pretty much looks par for the course on an independant Notre Dame schedule. Irish get a bye week before heading to San Diego for NAVY game–good time to work on the option attack. Seems the big hub-bub on comments here is the game November 17 in New York versus SYR. The focus is as always beat the top teams on the schedule—we know who they are starting September 1st. I could care less whether it’s a night game , day game or what TV channel — just win the game. Playing too many night games is now being brought forth as an excuse to not having successful season ? No doubt about it —top teams facing off against each other will be broadcast on TV — night games , so we fans can enjoy college football in prime time. I understand the gripes of Irish fans on here —it’s all about the money. But , you all will be watching prime time College football–night games too of top rated teams. So , let’s cut the excuses of scheduling mishaps , night games , travel fatigue—-you think the players are going to mutiny because of their schedule , where they play , what time they play. Go Irish

    1. Southside – I (and others) are not even predicting a bad season. I predict 11-1 (and hope we stick it in the NCAA’s face with a 12-0!) We might. The issue is about scheduling a student athlete in a high profile sport…as opposed to using them as front men of a sort (the Cheerleaders too IMO) in order to raise money and general support nationwide. There has always been some of that, of course. But Syracuse especially was a “bridge too far” MORALLY for me. And NAVY was a blunder…probably a contract that should not have been signed from the start. I don’t think we’ll lose that game. But it will be harder than usual, because on gameday, about 60,000 NAVY fans are going to show up. And it could have been played somewhere else, or at least we could have gotten an “extra” home game out of it! Tell them OK we’ll play there…in 2019, when we are not playing USC at USC too! So NAVY plays us at home for the second year in a row at ND (2018: this year). Make them pay too!

      BGC ’77 ’82

      1. Notre Dame should rout Navy regardless of where the game is played and even with 60k Navy fans. Do you think Alabama or Georgia would have trouble with Navy? I don’t. ND needs to start stepping on the throat of some of these teams that they are expected to beat and Navy is one of those teams.

      2. Alabama, NO TROUBLE (if they do what their coaches tell them to do defensively…they typically have outrageous speed, and used properly, that kills the option.)
        Georgia? They have a lot of trouble with Georgia Tech’s flexbone, often LOSING THAT GAME! So why should they be expected to fare much better against NAVY?…it’s the same offense, perhaps run even better by Midshipmen than by the Ramblin’ Wrecks at Georgia Tech! FYI…Mississippi State had an awful time with GT too, in a recent bowl game. So the rumor that anyone in the SEC would blow out NAVY is probably so much bilge water.

        By the way, there are examples of other SEC teams losing to top end Conference USA Teams (though not to NAVY).

        BGC ’77 ’82

      3. BGC, Georgia football is rapidly climbing to the top of the food chain and one could argue they are already there with Alabama. I don’t believe Notre Dame will ever reach the same level of these teams due to many factors but mainly strict academics. Somewhere between 10-2 and 7-5 is as good as its going to get. 12-0 or 11-1 is highly unlikely as the stars just don’t line up for ND as they once did like 40 years ago. 2012 was a FLUKE.

  4. Really.. worried about Navy, Syracuse and Northwestern ?? How much lower do you want to set the bar ? Its all $$.

    1. The Navy Shipmen pose a great challenge to any team Mr Canoe!!!!! Those hunky sailors ? are unfortunately causing trouble every year for teams!!! I think we need to look at them in a whole different category than we saw them as opponents 20 years ago!!! There option style is a challenge for any team including Alabama!!!! They would give old Nick Saban fits??? Go Irish!!!

  5. Come-on, y’all. Stop whining. Start winning. And would SOMENODY okease start focusing oon football and not the drama? I”m 20-minutes north of Foxboro, MA, where the Patriots are now dealing with WolverWussy drama. (Brady > (sc)UM girl) Cut the crap! PLAY THE DAMN GAME.

  6. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh Mommee, I got a tough schedule, boo hoo.

    Typical non-vets, we need some more combat vets like Lujack, Czarobski, Martin, (badassitude worthy of Da U), Connor.

    You all talk Rockne as if you had the foggiest idea of what he stood for.

    Research this: how do you feel about the spacing and start time of the HOME GAMES in Notre Dame’s 1929 schedule?

    Free ginsu knives for the best answer. Yeah it’s a trick question.

    The next home game I attend I’m buying my own section. Mick, YOU ARE INVITED with all you kin, children and grandchildren.

    The rest of you who WHINED on this thread? You can all sit together in the Midol/Pamprin sponsored section.

    Fred Leahy: I need you to weigh in on this matter, and then explain why your poppa was so willing to play Army in New
    York City each year.. except for ’47.

    1. We are not in the process of building a stadium, like we were in 1929 Duranko – and you know it.

      BGC ’77 ’82

    2. And another thing, Duranko: Rockne’s teams mostly played 8 or 9 game schedules. Today we play 12. In addition to that, the academic requirements at ND today are way more rigorous than 1929, or even 1943. Give these men a break! Your comparison is not apples and oranges – it’s apples and ice skates, sir.

      BGC ’77 ’82

      1. Yeah, I have to agree. CFB today is virtually unrecognizable of that from decades ago.

        I have no problem with playing a tough schedule. I love that ND plays nationally. But I don’t want to see ND make the schedule needlessly more difficult just for $$$, with no other benefit to the teams resume or chances to make a playoff.

  7. I agree totally with Fitz and Michael the Archangel. $$$$ rule the Notre Dame Football Program.

    Look at Alabama. Great team. Regional fan base. They schedule for success.
    Alabama gets upset if they have to play a game in a non-contiguous state.
    Every game they play is televised. Travel time is minimized and the players don’t get too worn down.
    Fans get to see them every week on TV.

    Look at Notre Dame. National fan base. We schedule for marketing $$$.
    Our players have to fly all over hell’s half-acre to complete the schedule.
    Fatigue sets in. November swoons are common.

    Alabama’s schedule is often not as tough as it appears because the SEC is top heavy,
    with a lot of mediocre teams below those few great teams.
    If their SEC opponents in any given year are not those few tough SEC teams,
    their usually easy out-of-conference schedule (including one FCS team each year)
    guarantees a good shot at the college football playoffs.

    Notre Dame usually schedules several very good teams scattered throughout the schedule
    and most of the other teams are good with a few weak teams thrown in. The excessive travel is the killer.
    For some reason, which eludes me, Notre Dame doesn’t understand
    that TV goes everywhere when you are on a national network.
    Most of our away games are also broadcast on a national network or ESPN.
    You don’t have to travel to get the eyeballs watching your team.

    Alabama in recent years has had trouble filling its stadium for its patsy out-of-conference games.
    Or many people leave at half-time if the game is a rout.

    Notre Dame has had the ill-advised Shamrock Series games.
    How is a game against Washington State in San Antonio in a half-filled stadium
    supposed to promote our brand or excite the people of Texas?

    Alabama has their pick of 5-star athletes. Their coach is brilliant and driven.
    Notre Dame can’t get all these same athletes because of academic restrictions.
    Our coach is only adequate at overcoming this handicap.

    The only ways to overcome this handicap are to get a better coach and minimize travel.
    Brian Kelly is a good coach but not the great one we need. He can’t develop quarterbacks among other failings.
    If you think a coach can’t make a difference,
    look at Stanford which has even more restrictive academic qualifications than Notre Dame.
    Since Kelly started coaching here in 2010, the cumulative records for 2010 through 2016 for Division IA teams
    had Stanford ranked third behind only Alabama and Ohio State. (The 2017 records may have changed the rankings a bit.)

    So schedule for success (minimize travel), eventually get a dynamic charismatic coach,
    and we too may compete for National Championships in football someday.
    Until then, I’m afraid that 8-4 or 9-3 plus a mediocre bowl game is the only thing in our future.

    1. Lou: The only way to “sell yourself out for the money” is if there’s a willing market to tolerate it and pay up.

      And that’s where the pathetically delusional, nostalgic cheerleaders here stoke the fire.

  8. I love it. Bring it on. If the Irish run the table (or even have 1 loss) they should be in. I would rather go 8-4 with a killer schedule than 11-1 with a soft schedule.

  9. “Money, so they say, is the root of all evil today…think I’ll buy me a football team!” Pink Floyd.

    BGC ’77 ’82

    1. Pink Floyd was incorrect.

      “radix malorum est cupiditas” It is not money, but, immo vero, the “Love of money” which is the root of all evil Cupiditty, not having a wad of Franklins.

    2. Well, that’s Pink Floyd’s version.

      The quote is “Radix malorum est cupiditas” It is not mere shekels, rather cupidity and greed that is evil’s root.

      Despite their clever protestations others the line “We don’t need no education” is a dog which doesnt’ hunt.

      It is avarice. And if don’t believe me, check Hannibal Lecter in the movie “Hannibal” He had a word or two on Avarice,
      an admonition that Marcello Mastroianni as Inspector Pazzi ignored, with bloody results.

      1. Duranko, I can give you a dozen other examples of bad things Pink Floyd has said or done worse even than “a brick in the wall.” They are NOT heroes, for sure. But they DO give their time and MONEY, and lots of it, to the mentally ill, and related causes. They are now, always have been, and always will be, friends and benefactors of the mentally ill. Other than Tipper Gore, I can’t think of any other wealthy major public figures who give more than lip service and photo ops to the mentally ill as a class of human beings. I am mentally ill, as was my father and most likely my grandfather before him, though my grandfather was never diagnosed. The image Hollywood, TV, and defense attorneys have put in the public’s minds of what we are like is unpardonable. They purposefully avoid labeling evil, pathetic excuses for men as simply evil and pathetic, and instead present them as “mentally ill”…typically bipolar (like me) or schizophrenic, which for the most part, they are not. So remember, Duranko, at the Last Judgment, which the members of Pink Floyd don’t even believe in, David Gilmour, et al, may fare a lot better than you might expect…”whatever you did for the least of my people” is that quote, if you recall.

        BGC ’77 ’82

    3. I love the PINK FLOYD reference BGC!!!!! THE IRISH are still the biggest draw in the country when they come to any town!! Half the fans come to c them loose the other half love THE IRISH!! TRAVEL HELPS RECRUITING!! KNUTE ROCKNE was the coach when the IRISH traveled out to CALIFORNIA!!! YES they took trains out to CALI !! The schedule doesn’t matter if we cant beat MICHIGAN week 1 !!!

      1. Do the alumni and fans in Southern California really need, or somehow deserve, TWO games? Seriously? Does anybody believe that?

        As for Michigan, we will beat them…no doubt in my mind. Here’s my point: by the end of November, how many of our guys will be worrying about their classes, their GPA’s, and even their future eligibility, rather than simply focusing on playing out the last 5 games? And of all the “friends and benefactors” the Development Office will be “cultivating” back and forth across the continent, exactly how many of them would GO BALLISTIC if their own kids were being bounced all over the country for AN ENTIRE MONTH, living out of a suitcase, instead of attending classes on campus JUST SO THAT Development can throw some glitzy gold parties? C’mon dudes…they trained us to think and tell the truth at ND. How would you feel if they were using YOUR kid that way?

        BGC ’77 ’82

  10. This is horse shit playing USC every other year at their place last game. Go nack to making SC play ND at home in November.

    1. …or playing USC and Stanford in September out there with Fox televising it with a 7:30 PST kickoff

    2. Jack, scheduling USC/Stanford on Thanksgiving weekend (and USC/Miami) before that, is actually good scheduling!
      1. It is over a four day weekend, which is not such a burden on the student athletes as a normal weekend.
      2. It’s a warm weather game in late November.
      3. If we win it, it’s very valuable in the Bowl selection process.

      But Syracuse fails all three of those, and NAVY (which will be jammed with NAVY fans…more than would be at Annapolis) fails on two of three of those points.

      BGC ’77 ’82

      1. Hey, Bruce, point of fact – Navy never plays ND at its home stadium (Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium – capacity 34,000 approx.) in Annapolis; when Navy is the home team, as it is this year, Navy will play ND in an NFL stadium or at a similar capacity stadium overseas (i.e., Ireland) at a location selected jointly with ND for maximum exposure for both programs and their fans – ND’s home game versus Navy has always in South Bend in the more recent 50 years or so.

      2. Chuck,
        You are correct. We usually play them somewhere on the East coast…the last one I actually went to was at Ravens stadium in Baltimore. But those venues are jammed with ND fans…even though they were nominally NAVY home games. San Diego Naval Base will be jammed with NAVY fans, not ND fans. It will be WORSE than playing at Annapolis would be. That’s my point.

        PS to all: Those who call me a whiner (or afraid to play a tough schedule) are wrong. I’m just sick and tired of the Development Office’s blatant hypocrisy when they pompously claim that ND is all about “student” athletes…but then treat these guys like so many front men for national their fund raising and “cultivation” parties (to use Development’s own term for it) while actually treating them like NEITHER students NOR athletes. Swarbrick needs to grow a pair and politely tell Development that enough is enough…get out of athletics…just as all Development officers seem to claim from time to time that they are! Simply require Development to live up to its dual claims that “it’s about student athletes” and “Development is not into sports, we’re about Notre Dame”. It was about student athletes once, and Development used to run parallel with sports. Now, it seems that they simply run sports!

        BGC ’77 ’82

        BGC ’77 ’82

      3. errata correction: “for their national” not “for national their”


    3. Playing SC in NOVEMBER has been going on for over 50 years guys!!! THIS IS NOTHING NEW!!! SC has always played the IRISH at ND stadium in OCTOBER FOR OVER 50 YEARS!! Lets not keep crying about the schedule PLEASE!!! When your not in a conference YOU MUST TRAVEL!!!!

  11. You guys whine whine whine – Navy players have a hell of a lot more to deal with than your white glove handled players and you never hear a word from them on their travel ! Last time I checked they were a pretty damn good team too. I guess you guys don’t care about what type of man you are graduating anymore and only your football record. Whine, whine whine!

    1. Larry,
      What exactly have you “heard” from ND players? True, I have not heard anything from NAVY players, but neither have I heard anything from ND players.

      BGC ’77 ’82

    1. Frank asks what is gained . . .Fitz provides the answer.
      ND will follow the money to the ends of the Earth, with neither regard for their student-athletes nor assisting the team in winning.
      How many teams would schedule four road games for their last five games ? Only one! Greed is the guiding principle.
      So the next time a fan questions an athlete leaving early for the money, remember they learned that from their athletic administration.

      1. Exactly. Money is the only reason. Some of that is out of ND’s control (doesn’t the TV network dictate some game times?), but playing Syracuse ‘home’ in NY just doesn’t make sense.

        Now, I love a tough schedule. This is ND, I don’t want to play Division II teams or anything like that, though not every team is top 25.

        But there’s tough and then there’s ridiculous. If making something tougher adds to the resume and may make the difference in playoff vs. no playoff, then I’m all for it. But playing Syracuse in NY or Navy at night does nothing, absolutely nothing to help our resume. Win both games and the chances of a playoff spot are the same no matter the time or place. But by doing what they are doing and increase the fatigue factor and jet lag you risk losing a winnable game, that would be devastating to playoff chances.

        We can all complain that BK should have his team prepared. And I have no problem dumping on BK when he does something stupid. But I also don’t believe in making things more difficult without a reasonable payoff (and not in dollars). If they lose one of these games because they wear down after such a brutal stretch, I’d be more likely to blame Swarbick for that then BK.

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